<MathPoet> Anything you feel a need for, you can notice its absence in the world.
<MathPoet> Zero is an abstraction of that noticing.
<DGNeree> if its not there, it doesnt exist
<DGNeree> no, zero is not nothing
<MathPoet> I'm saying that the fact that it is not there exists as a real thing.
<DGNeree> i dispute that
<MathPoet> the not-thereness is a real thing. Otherwise, how would anybody owe anybody else anything?
<DGNeree> i say the existence of that is memory and imagination
<MathPoet> I love this, by the way :)
<MathPoet> you seem very comfortable in dismissing experience to the realm of thought.
<MathPoet> Perhaps too comfortable.
<DGNeree> nope. i know the didtinction
<MathPoet> If experience is first, which I say it is, then any experience is part of reality even if the experience is not shared.
<DGNeree> i am a knower of awareness
<DGNeree> first awareness, then experience, then thought/ and feeling
<MathPoet> then what about an experiencer of awareness. reality is not just a good idea we whipped up one day.
<MathPoet> And I guess I disagree.
<DGNeree> yes you can experience awareness, but....
<MathPoet> Experience, then awareness, then thought.
<MathPoet> even the experience of a thought.
<DGNeree> athPoet, you can not perceive the perceiver
<MathPoet> why not? don't Buddhists and physicists do it all the time:)
<MathPoet> besides, I disagree.
<DGNeree> no, they become the perceiver
<DGNeree> you cannot see the one that looks
<DGNeree> look at yourself
<MathPoet> I think and understand that I can become aware of my experience and have thoughts about my awareness and experience
<DGNeree> but who perceives those thoughts?
<DGNeree> who or what is aware?
<MathPoet> I do look at myself. Often. Not that I'm cute, but it's important to try to come to some UNDERSTANDING of life.
<MathPoet> and that begins with experience.
<DGNeree> no, not look at yourself, but look at the looker
<MathPoet> There is no contradiction with having self-knowledge.
<MathPoet> I find it to be an evolving process.
<MathPoet> and I postulate that reality could be a work in progress as well.
<DGNeree> we create it everyday
<MathPoet> have already put the distinction there
<MathPoet> between the perceiver and the perceived.
<DGNeree> 3 billion years of evolution. Now its up to you
<MathPoet> that's why no one can argue you out of it.
<MathPoet> there may be an overlap
<DGNeree> thats the problem
<MathPoet> between the inner and outer worlds where we can live and perceive both at once.
<DGNeree> you have: the knower, the known and the process of knowing
<MathPoet> I believe that, I believe.
<DGNeree> but what are either?
<DGNeree> nobody knows yet
<DGNeree> matter isn't explained yet
<MathPoet> and you don't think/feel/sense that these are integral to consciousness>
<DGNeree> nor is the se;lf
<MathPoet> Just because you haven't experienced it does not mean it does not happen. You beg the question.
<DGNeree> consciousness is like a crystal ball
<MathPoet> now we're in the Wizard of OZ
<DGNeree> it takes the colour of the surroundings
<MathPoet> sorry. cheap shot.
<DGNeree> who knows if youre right?
<MathPoet> I don't have to be right for anyone else if I base what I know on what comes true in my life. I know that.
<MathPoet> And you seem to be guessing at theories to explain things that you don't know.
<MathPoet> If you base what you know on experience then you cannot be shaken.
<MathPoet> "I know it because I feel it"
<MathPoet> This is why I often vote to throw out the Law.
<MathPoet> It can never explain the multiplicity of experience.
<DGNeree> but why do you feel it? No, real knowing is not a feeling
<DGNeree> the feeling accompanies it
<MathPoet> I don't agree. Even the "why do you feel it" presupposes something before it. You begin with contradiction and then derive contradiction. It's called begging the question.
<MathPoet> What it is,
<MathPoet> is that you dont' BELIEVE what I'm saying
<MathPoet> and so come up with ideas to surmount it.
<MathPoet> But I say what I've lived through. and I say that feeling comes first, then awareness, then idea (if any).
<DGNeree> mathpoet, will you log this conversation afterwards please?
<DGNeree> i have to recapitulatre
<MathPoet> does that mean this is over now?
<MathPoet> what do you think, Galga?
<DGNeree> it's over when i DIE!!!
<DGNeree> no seriously
<Galga> if u plug a vcam to a ttv/monitor & focus on the monitor screen
<MathPoet> yes! Ouroboros.
<DGNeree> the world snake
<Galga> yes looking at the looker
<DGNeree> lets talk about the snake that eats itself
<MathPoet> maybe a model for fourdimensional finite unbounded closed universe.
<DGNeree> and by eating it exists
<Galga> but unable to decide whether it exists or not
<MathPoet> well, does it exist or not?
<MathPoet> I believe the term is "dubious".
<DGNeree> well, that is the point. what is existance?
<MathPoet> what does THAT mean?
<DGNeree> I think that the "looker" is a non-object
<MathPoet> "What is existance?" What does that mean?
<DGNeree> it is only definable in contradictory terms
<DGNeree> not this, not that
<DGNeree> it is not light, not darkness, etcetera
<MathPoet> like the statue of David, the sculptor "just took away the bits that weren't David."
<DGNeree> it doesn't exist and by that it creATES EVERYTHING
<DGNeree> THE UNMOVED MOVER
<MathPoet> I loathe defining things in terms of things they are not. Perhaps that's what an eternity is for.
<DGNeree> sorry, capslock
<Galga> existence of future event ? does it really exist
<DGNeree> Mathpoet, all logic leads to paradoxes
<MathPoet> What if it is giving birth to itself?
<DGNeree> it is a separate system
<DGNeree> with links o reality
<MathPoet> Artificial constraint, again.
<DGNeree> yes! the logical mind is artificial!!!
<DGNeree> How right you are
<Galga> lol @ of capslock
<DGNeree> MathPoet you said it :)
<MathPoet> what if you experienced something we usually think of as idea as a metaphysical reality?
<DGNeree> the idea follows the experience
<MathPoet> Logic is a way to be right "in the world".
<MathPoet> That's it:
<DGNeree> the concept is an articial reality
<MathPoet> awareness follows feeling and thought follows awareness.
<DGNeree> no, awareness comes first
<MathPoet> If you don't feel it, there's nothing to be aware of.
<MathPoet> feel SOMETHING.
<DGNeree> yes, you are aware of your feeling(s)
<DGNeree> your feelings are not aware of you.
<MathPoet> If feeling is what we're aware of, then the only reality we MIGHT have is some overlap.
<DGNeree> there is the observer and the observed
<DGNeree> feelings are observed by the observer
<DGNeree> experience is experienced by the experiencer
<MathPoet> and the process of feeling, becoming aware, and having thoughts about our experiences can lead us to greater understanding of ourselves our lives and our universe.
<DGNeree> feelings are felt by the feeler
<DGNeree> yes i sure hope it does
<MathPoet> so there is a process whereby we come to (imperfectly) understand the world.
<MathPoet> we don't all have to agree on what reality is, and yet we may believe that it exists.
<MathPoet> If belief happpens, that could be wonderful and terrible.
<MathPoet> But at least I'd know where I stand.
<DGNeree> look. there is the subjective "I" and the so called objective "world". none of these concepts have been understood to the chore by any of the sciences
<DGNeree> the central question
<MathPoet> The closest, I believe is Depth Psychology, which I don't know very much about.
<DGNeree> what is reality? what is matter/energy?
<MathPoet> I do believe in a God that relativizes and provides perspective to both myself and my world.
<DGNeree> they can say what they DO but not what it IS
<DGNeree> everybody's still looking
<DGNeree> yes haha. i'm glad you laugh :D
<MathPoet> because if we're not speaking from experience, we can only say what it is "like". not what it "is"
<DGNeree> what is the oundation of matter?
<DGNeree> what is life?
<MathPoet> we can say energy is that-which-moves of some other image like that.
<DGNeree> what is consciousness?
<DGNeree> what is perceiving?
<MathPoet> more than that, what do these questions mean?
<MathPoet> what do the questions mean?
<MathPoet> by asking, aren't you asking for context? something they are like?
<DGNeree> it means that we are virtual atoms in an eternal universe
<MathPoet> and yet you can experience energy and matter and perception and consciousness!
<Galga> just realized that i m the luckiest one out of millions to become me
<DGNeree> yes, because every fragment reflects the all
<MathPoet> you can experience these things, and still you ask. What is the answer you are looking for, if it's not found "in your own house?"
<Galga> perhaps, luck, time, God and so... favoured me to occupy my existence
<MathPoet> That's great, Galga!
<DGNeree> it's because we have to die, MathPoet
<MathPoet> I think Andre Watts exists to I don't have to do what he does and can have our own work.
<DGNeree> before its begun
<MathPoet> We don't know really what that means, though, do we DGNeree ?
<DGNeree> no we don't. we don't even know what life means
<DGNeree> or why anything exists in the first place
<MathPoet> Dive into life while you are alive!!1
<MathPoet> I say, find the truth of our own experience.
<MathPoet> Become aware of it.
<MathPoet> think about it.
<DGNeree> Life is a fact!!! XD :'( . or is it?
<MathPoet> My teacher taught me to trust my life as best I can.
<MathPoet> It's a work in progress.
<DGNeree> yes, please do
<MathPoet> Belief is a work in progress.
<MathPoet> Reality is a work in progress.
<MathPoet> I believe in what I have learned all the more if I have experienced it.
<DGNeree> i have a topic
<MathPoet> This is why I don't ask others to believe in God.
<DGNeree> shut up!
<MathPoet> what's the topic?
<DGNeree> the snake
<DGNeree> The universe is constantly being created and destroyed at the same time
<MathPoet> as what? A symbol? or the thing beneath the rock?
<DGNeree> no, it lives and grows because it eats itself
<MathPoet> If there is an eternity, then I feel inclined to agree.
<DGNeree> its a paradox
<DGNeree> MathPoet. you live because you eat other living creatures
<DGNeree> and they live because they eat you
<DGNeree> nature is a living treadmill
<Galga> so if u stop eating other living things u will stop living ?
<DGNeree> and so is the universe
<MathPoet> Technically, no. I actually live because I haven't died yet. Beyond that, yes. I eat others to survive.
<DGNeree> can you live on sand or rocks?
<DGNeree> it's the same with the universe
<Galga> but a polar bear lives for nine months without eating anything. right ?
<DGNeree> it decided to create itself so it could eat itself
<MathPoet> What is the point again? to show the "appropriateness" of a symbol?
<DGNeree> and by eating it would grow
<DGNeree> and devour itself
<MathPoet> good. next, let's consider the yoyo as the model of the universe.
<MathPoet> I don't understand, honestly.
<DGNeree> and the more it grows, the more it will eat
<DGNeree> youre not to blame
<DGNeree> look at it this way:
<MathPoet> why create a symbol to describe what the universe is like
<MathPoet> when you can experience it firsthand?
<DGNeree> well, why bother about a big bang?
<MathPoet> I guess there is some value in it.
<DGNeree> who cares?
<MathPoet> I didn't mean thatm
<MathPoet> it's just that when someone comes up with some idea
<MathPoet> there's so much fighting about it.
<DGNeree> MathPoet: neutralise two opposites and the magnetic field is gone
<MathPoet> why is there so much fighting?
<DGNeree> because we are in HELL
<DGNeree> its our fate :'(
<MathPoet> who can say which came first? the dissappearance of the magnetic field or the neutralization?
<DGNeree> egg or chicken
<MathPoet> I think the whole Hell thing is too easy.
<MathPoet> It doesn't have to be that way.
<DGNeree> no. there is extacy
<DGNeree> and knowing
<DGNeree> and beauty
<MathPoet> and the reality of our sacred experience.
<DGNeree> yes, the game!!!
<MathPoet> more that the game or the war. and the stakes are high.
<DGNeree> our life is at stake!
<DGNeree> and yet again it isnt
<MathPoet> er. capslock....
<DGNeree> because we've lost already
<DGNeree> it is an unfair battle
<MathPoet> maybe our souls are at stake, and maybe not.
<DGNeree> no, not our souls
<DGNeree> but the chambers where it is forced to dwell
<MathPoet> but I choose to believe that the experience is the thing. the FEELING is what we need to know and live with.
<DGNeree> but they are dreams