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<MathPoet> Anything you feel a need for, you can notice its absence in the world.

<MathPoet> Zero is an abstraction of that noticing.

<DGNeree> if its not there, it doesnt exist

<DGNeree> no, zero is not nothing

<MathPoet> I'm saying that the fact that it is not there exists as a real thing.

<DGNeree> i dispute that

<MathPoet> the not-thereness is a real thing. Otherwise, how would anybody owe anybody else anything?

<DGNeree> i say the existence of that is memory and imagination

<MathPoet> I love this, by the way  :)

<MathPoet> you seem very comfortable in dismissing experience to the realm of thought.

<MathPoet> Perhaps too comfortable.

<DGNeree> nope. i know the didtinction

<DGNeree> distinction

<MathPoet> If experience is first, which I say it is, then any experience is part of reality even if the experience is not shared.

<DGNeree> i am a knower of awareness

<DGNeree> first awareness, then experience, then thought/ and feeling

<MathPoet> then what about an experiencer of awareness. reality is not just a good idea we whipped up one day.

<MathPoet> And I guess I disagree.

<DGNeree> yes you can experience awareness, but....

<MathPoet> Experience, then awareness, then thought.

<MathPoet> even the experience of a thought.

<DGNeree> athPoet, you can not perceive the perceiver

<MathPoet> why not? don't Buddhists and physicists do it all the time:)

<MathPoet> besides, I disagree.

<DGNeree> no, they become the perceiver

<DGNeree> you cannot see the one that looks

<DGNeree> look at yourself

<MathPoet> I think and understand that I can become aware of my experience and have thoughts about my awareness and experience

<DGNeree> but who perceives those thoughts?

<DGNeree> who or what is aware?

<MathPoet> I do look at myself. Often. Not that I'm cute, but it's important to try to come to some UNDERSTANDING of life.

<MathPoet> and that begins with experience.

<DGNeree> no, not look at yourself, but look at the looker

<MathPoet> There is no contradiction with having self-knowledge.

<MathPoet> I find it to be an evolving process.

<MathPoet> and I postulate that reality could be a work in progress as well.

<MathPoet> you

<DGNeree> we create it everyday

<MathPoet> have already put the distinction there

<MathPoet> between the perceiver and the perceived.

<DGNeree> 3 billion years of evolution. Now its up to you

<MathPoet> that's why no one can argue you out of it.

<MathPoet> there may be an overlap

<DGNeree> thats the problem

<MathPoet> between the inner and outer worlds where we can live and perceive both at once.

<DGNeree> you have: the knower, the known and the process of knowing

<MathPoet> I believe that, I believe.

<DGNeree> but what are either?

<DGNeree> nobody knows yet

<DGNeree> matter isn't explained yet

<MathPoet> and you don't think/feel/sense that these are integral to consciousness>

<DGNeree> nor is the se;lf

<MathPoet> ???

<MathPoet> Just because you haven't experienced it does not mean it does not happen. You beg the question.

<DGNeree> consciousness is like a crystal ball

<MathPoet> now we're in the Wizard of OZ

<MathPoet> :)

<DGNeree> it takes the colour of the surroundings

<MathPoet> sorry. cheap shot.

<DGNeree> who knows if youre right?

<MathPoet> I don't have to be right for anyone else if I base what I know on what comes true in my life. I know that.

<MathPoet> And you seem to be guessing at theories to explain things that you don't know.

<MathPoet> If you base what you know on experience then you cannot be shaken.

<MathPoet> "I know it because I feel it"

<MathPoet> This is why I often vote to throw out the Law.

<MathPoet> It can never explain the multiplicity of experience.

<DGNeree> but why do you feel it? No, real knowing is not a feeling

<DGNeree> the feeling accompanies it

<MathPoet> I don't agree. Even the "why do you feel it" presupposes something before it. You begin with contradiction and then derive contradiction. It's called begging the question.

<MathPoet> What it is,

<MathPoet> is that you dont' BELIEVE what I'm saying

<MathPoet> and so come up with ideas to surmount it.

<MathPoet> But I say what I've lived through. and I say that feeling comes first, then awareness, then idea (if any).

<DGNeree> mathpoet, will you log this conversation afterwards please?

<DGNeree> i have to recapitulatre

<DGNeree> recapitulate

<MathPoet> yes.

<MathPoet> haha

<MathPoet> does that mean this is over now?

<Galga> interesting

<MathPoet> what do you think, Galga?

<DGNeree> what?

<DGNeree> it's over when i DIE!!!

<DGNeree> no seriously

<Galga> if u plug a vcam to a ttv/monitor & focus on the monitor screen

<MathPoet> yes! Ouroboros.

<DGNeree> OUROROBOROS!!!

<DGNeree> RORO!!!

<MathPoet> :)

<DGNeree> the world snake

<Galga> yes looking at the looker

<DGNeree> lets talk about the snake that eats itself

<MathPoet> maybe a model for fourdimensional finite unbounded closed universe.

<DGNeree> and by eating it exists

<Galga> but unable to decide whether it exists or not

<MathPoet> well, does it exist or not?

<MathPoet> I believe the term is "dubious".

<DGNeree> well, that is the point. what is existance?

<Galga> identifiable

<MathPoet> what does THAT mean?

<DGNeree> I think that the "looker" is a non-object

<Galga> distinguish

<MathPoet> "What is existance?" What does that mean?

<DGNeree> it is only definable in contradictory terms

<MathPoet> perhaps....

<DGNeree> not this, not that

<DGNeree> it is not light, not darkness, etcetera

<MathPoet> like the statue of David, the sculptor "just took away the bits that weren't David."

<DGNeree> it doesn't exist and by that it creATES EVERYTHING

<DGNeree> THE UNMOVED MOVER

<MathPoet> I loathe defining things in terms of things they are not. Perhaps that's what an eternity is for.

<DGNeree> sorry, capslock

<Galga> existence of future event ? does it really exist

<DGNeree> Mathpoet, all logic leads to paradoxes

<MathPoet> Maybe...

<DGNeree> yes

<MathPoet> What if it is giving birth to itself?

<DGNeree> it is a separate system

<DGNeree> with links o reality

<MathPoet> Artificial constraint, again.

<DGNeree> to

<DGNeree> yes! the logical mind is artificial!!!

<DGNeree> How right you are

<Galga> lol @ of capslock

<DGNeree> MathPoet you said it :)

<MathPoet> what if you experienced something we usually think of as idea as a metaphysical reality?

<DGNeree> the idea follows the experience

<MathPoet> Logic is a way to be right "in the world".

<MathPoet> That's it:

<DGNeree> the concept is an articial reality

<DGNeree> *artificial

<MathPoet> awareness follows feeling and thought follows awareness.

<DGNeree> no, awareness comes first

<MathPoet> If you don't feel it, there's nothing to be aware of.

<MathPoet> feel SOMETHING.

<DGNeree> yes, you are aware of your feeling(s)

<DGNeree> your feelings are not aware of you.

<MathPoet> If feeling is what we're aware of, then the only reality we MIGHT have is some overlap.

<DGNeree> there is the observer and the observed

<DGNeree> feelings are observed by the observer

<DGNeree> experience is experienced by the experiencer

<MathPoet> and the process of feeling, becoming aware, and having thoughts about our experiences can lead us to greater understanding of ourselves our lives and our universe.

<DGNeree> feelings are felt by the feeler

<DGNeree> yes i sure hope it does

<MathPoet> so there is a process whereby we come to (imperfectly) understand the world.

<MathPoet> we don't all have to agree on what reality is, and yet we may believe that it exists.

<MathPoet> If belief happpens, that could be wonderful and terrible.

<MathPoet> But at least I'd know where I stand.

<DGNeree> look. there is the subjective "I" and the so called objective "world". none of these concepts have been understood to the chore by any of the sciences

<MathPoet> *core?

<DGNeree> the central question

<MathPoet> The closest, I believe is Depth Psychology, which I don't know very much about.

<DGNeree> what is reality? what is matter/energy?

<MathPoet> I do believe in a God that relativizes and provides perspective to both myself and my world.

<DGNeree> they can say what they DO but not what it IS

<DGNeree> everybody's still looking

<MathPoet> haha.

<DGNeree> yes haha. i'm glad you laugh :D

<MathPoet> because if we're not speaking from experience, we can only say what it is "like". not what it "is"

<DGNeree> what is the oundation of matter?

<DGNeree> foundation?

<DGNeree> what is life?

<MathPoet> we can say energy is that-which-moves of some other image like that.

<DGNeree> what is consciousness?

<DGNeree> what is perceiving?

<MathPoet> more than that, what do these questions mean?

<MathPoet> seriously.

<MathPoet> what do the questions mean?

<MathPoet> explain.

<MathPoet> by asking, aren't you asking for context? something they are like?

<DGNeree> it means that we are virtual atoms in an eternal universe

<Galga> hmmm

<MathPoet> and yet you can experience energy and matter and perception and consciousness!

<Galga> just realized that i m the luckiest one out of millions to become me

<DGNeree> yes, because every fragment reflects the all

<MathPoet> you can experience these things, and still you ask. What is the answer you are looking for, if it's not found "in your own house?"

<Galga> perhaps, luck, time, God and so... favoured me to occupy my existence

<MathPoet> That's great, Galga!

<DGNeree> it's because we have to die, MathPoet

<MathPoet> I think Andre Watts exists to I don't have to do what he does and can have our own work.

<DGNeree> before its begun

<MathPoet> We don't know really what that means, though, do we DGNeree ?

<MathPoet> experientially.

<DGNeree> no we don't. we don't even know what life means

<DGNeree> or why anything exists in the first place

<MathPoet> Dive into life while you are alive!!1

<MathPoet> I say, find the truth of our own experience.

<MathPoet> Become aware of it.

<MathPoet> think about it.

<DGNeree> Life is a fact!!! XD :'( . or is it?

<MathPoet> My teacher taught me to trust my life as best I can.

<MathPoet> It's a work in progress.

<DGNeree> yes, please do

<MathPoet> Belief is a work in progress.

<MathPoet> Reality is a work in progress.

<MathPoet> I believe in what I have learned all the more if I have experienced it.

<DGNeree> ATTENTION!!!

<DGNeree> i have a topic

<MathPoet> This is why I don't ask others to believe in God.

<MathPoet> Okay

<DGNeree> shut up!

<MathPoet> what's the topic?

<MathPoet> :)

<DGNeree> the snake

<DGNeree> The universe is constantly being created and destroyed at the same time

<MathPoet> as what? A symbol? or the thing beneath the rock?

<DGNeree> no, it lives and grows because it eats itself

<MathPoet> If there is an eternity, then I feel inclined to agree.

<DGNeree> its a paradox

<DGNeree> MathPoet. you live because you eat other living creatures

<DGNeree> and they live because they eat you

<DGNeree> nature is a living treadmill

<Galga> so if u stop eating other living things u will stop living ?

<DGNeree> and so is the universe

<DGNeree> yes

<MathPoet> Technically, no. I actually live because I haven't died yet. Beyond that, yes. I eat others to survive.

<DGNeree> can you live on sand or rocks?

<DGNeree> it's the same with the universe

<Galga> but a polar bear lives for nine months without eating anything. right ?

<DGNeree> it decided to create itself so it could eat itself

<MathPoet> What is the point again? to show the "appropriateness" of a symbol?

<Galga> aaah

<DGNeree> and by eating it would grow

<DGNeree> and devour itself

<MathPoet> good. next, let's consider the yoyo as the model of the universe.

<MathPoet> I don't understand, honestly.

<DGNeree> and the more it grows, the more it will eat

<DGNeree> youre not to blame

<DGNeree> look at it this way:

<MathPoet> why create a symbol to describe what the universe is like

<MathPoet> when you can experience it firsthand?

<DGNeree> well, why bother about a big bang?

<MathPoet> I guess there is some value in it.

<DGNeree> who cares?

<MathPoet> NO.

<MathPoet> I didn't mean thatm

<MathPoet> it's just that when someone comes up with some idea

<MathPoet> there's so much fighting about it.

<DGNeree> MathPoet: neutralise two opposites and the magnetic field is gone

<MathPoet> why is there so much fighting?

<DGNeree> because we are in HELL

<DGNeree> its our fate :'(

<DGNeree> XD

<MathPoet> who can say which came first? the dissappearance of the magnetic field or the neutralization?

<DGNeree> egg or chicken

<MathPoet> I think the whole Hell thing is too easy.

<MathPoet> It doesn't have to be that way.

<DGNeree> no. there is extacy

<DGNeree> and knowing

<DGNeree> and beauty

<MathPoet> and the reality of our sacred experience.

<DGNeree> yes, the game!!!

<DGNeree> WAR!!!

<MathPoet> more that the game or the war. and the stakes are high.

<DGNeree> LOVE!!!!

<DGNeree> our life is at stake!

<DGNeree> and yet again it isnt

<MathPoet> er. capslock....

<DGNeree> because we've lost already

<DGNeree> it is an unfair battle

<MathPoet> maybe our souls are at stake, and maybe not.

<DGNeree> no, not our souls

<DGNeree> but the chambers where it is forced to dwell

<MathPoet> but I choose to believe that the experience is the thing. the FEELING is what we need to know and live with.

<DGNeree> but they are dreams

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